Noise on all HF Bands

Discussion in 'Interference Problems' started by Kev, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. Kev

    Kev Member

    I forgot to add to this, the Radio is set to IPO1,

    Please find another picture

    Plot 7
    40m Band 7.150
    Mode is LSB
    Filtering used was DNR set to 6, Width 2.4k, VRF set to 108
    IPO 1
    Time of recording 21:00 UTC on the 18 02 2016

    you can see on this plot more clearly as the band is quite clear how the pulses from these Energy Saving CFL's cause.

    It raises the noise floor by a minimum of 5db and upto 7db when they all go off at the same time.

    Regards

    Kev de 2E0WCK

    Attached Files:

    Ken G3SDW likes this.
  2. Kev

    Kev Member

    Greetings Friends,

    Last set of pictures,

    I wanted to capture what it looks like when the lighting is not on.

    Please find below:

    Plot 8

    Plot 8 is an Image using the Spectrum Labs Watcher/Plotter, it shows last nights noise on the same frequency compared to me turning it on early this afternoon before the out side lights come on, very telling indeed.

    40m Band 7.150
    Mode is LSB
    Filtering used was DNR set to 6, Width 2.4k, VRF set to 108
    IPO 1
    19 02 2016

    Plot 9

    Plot 9 is again another 3d image, this time while the out side lights are off, What a difference it makes.
    40m Band 7.150
    Filtering used was DNR set to 6, Width 2.4k, VRF set to 108
    19 02 2016

    Regards

    Kev..

    Attached Files:

    Ken G3SDW likes this.
  3. Kev

    Kev Member

    A little Update

    I received an email from Dr David Lauder today with a date to come along and do some testing which is great news.

    I also got in touch with Ofcom again and asked "would my current problem would fall under the new legislation that is coming into force on the 18th April 2016"?, the nice man on the phone was not sure, due to it being so new, and will be getting back to me with an answer in the next few days, we shall see.

    We keep our fingers crossed, but to be totaly honest, I do not hold out much hope.. I will give those reasons at a later date hi hi..


    While I am here, please find a picture of Today's 3d trace of the noise, as you can see it is sublime, clean, no nasty things going on with it at all, and as it always is when these lights do not come on.

    7.175.000 mhz Trace with the same radio with all the same settings as before.

    7175_1530_1.png

    The next picture shows you lasts nights noise on the left when said Lighting is on, and you can clearly see when the lighting system is not on..

    7.175.000 mhz Trace with the same radio with all the same settings as before.

    last_nights_noise_todays noise_1.png


    Regards to all.

    Kev..
    Ken G3SDW likes this.
  4. Ken G3SDW

    Ken G3SDW Moderator

    Thanks for the update Kev`, keep up the good work, sure it will pay off, hopefully very soon.
    73 an 88 to Tina

    Ken
    G3SDW
  5. Kev

    Kev Member

    Hi Ken,

    Cheers for the reply, we live in hope mate.

    Here is a trace with someone actually talking on 7.145.000 mhz, Yep I can hear them, no lights on, no drop outs and crescendo's beautiful..

    7145_1.png


    Regards

    Kev..
  6. Kev

    Kev Member

    I am a very disallusioned licenced amateur, I am truely tired of all this now, i understand people are busy and most of all this is undertaken on a voluntary basis on behalf of and so on, our lives are put on hold, for more investigating blah blah blah, nearly 3 years we suffered this, 3 long years, yes the first couple of years this problem was not addressed, mainly due to the ill health of my partner who is also licenced, she had double pneumonia, twice! and nearly lost her life twice, she has severe spinal problems on top of her now damaged lungs, we have had a hell of a 3 years make no mistake and this hobby is her lifeline to the ouside world as much as mine, and we loved this hobby and spent a small fortune being part of it, for what? to find we cannot even operate due to the lies of the Law and how everyone has been duped into believing that they can actually get there RFI problems resolved through the LAW, well i tell you this, the law is an ASS, Ofcom is an ASS, and the RSGB have failed year on year on year to actually make headway in all this, yes I am aware that Ofcom and the Government dont actually give a toss, but you failed RSGB you failed to actually get a grip on all this, with all the people that are part of this organisation, that YOU have failed to actually lobby aggessively enough..

    I am done with it all know.

    If you get these problems and you are reading this and thinking, calm down fella, you do not have to live in my shoes, that is all i have to say on that..

    I will say this though, you got a dogs hell in chance of getting anything resolved, that's if it is a problem like mine, or that poor fella in another thread that has his problems coming through his mains from a boiler several floors down..

    Tina 2E0DTK my partner, still wants this resolved, so you will have to deal with her, Tina does not get fired up like me when she is let down, Tina is also an academic as well, so you will be in good company for sure, I myself will pack up this Hobby, it is not worth all the stress and let downs.

    Have fun everyone, it is certainly coming to a home near you..

    Kev..
  7. Kev

    Kev Member

    Greetings,

    Been a while since I was bothered to come and do this, but here it is,

    A BIG THANKS to Dr David Lauder for coming out and being here so late in the evening doing your tests..

    The noise appears to e coming from the dead emergency batteries in the lighting system of the building, this was mentioned to Mr Broadfoot of L&Q Group Housing Association months ago when the emergency lighting failed, his answer to me then was "It's not been maintained in years" I thought that to be a very helpful statement indeed...

    Since then, nothing has changed until 3 weeks ago, I got the belly ache so decided to call L&Q Group Housing again, this time I managed to actually speak to someone, by the name of Mr Ian Waterman, one of the Electrical Engineers for L&Q Group, explained everything again and this time told them straight, that ignoring me will be the biggest mistake they could make, so I kindly asked him to carefully listen, after about 40 minutes he then understood what the problem was, L&Q Group have now contracted in "dB Audio & Electronic Services" to test the emergency lighting, not a bad response from a Corporation that holds a "Corporate Responsibility" program to it's tenants, like it takes over two years to get this far, utter disgrace.

    A few days after "dB Audio" came, we now have a change in what we got, now during the daylight hours the noise comes on for over 3 minutes, and then goes off for 1 minute and 30 seconds, and starts up all over again, at night, the noise comes on for over 5 minutes and goes off for 1 minutes and 30 seconds and starts up all over again.

    This is in fact much worse than before, having it all the time with a 1 min 30 second break is no fun at all,..

    I once again called L&Q Group, and explained this problem of the lighting being on 24/7, no other building just ours, he did not know as always what to say, I asked them to look into it, how long does one give them, will they bother to call me back, "I doubt it very much", so, now, daytime is just a joke, and it's summer, wait til winter comes the DB level will raise up even more with the temp change.

    Reports, not had any reports yet, DR David Lauder did write to my partner who has been dealing with all this, as he wanted to know about the noise floor again, tests was done and the info has been sent off. now awaiting reports.

    So, I went into the foyer of the building and found a few notes from the company that has breen contracted in I have posted up the carbon copy of the last visit.

    Today I sit here getting the hump again, due to lack of anything happening or lack of being informed of what's happening if anything, Stress,, so, I decided to telephone "dB Audio" to find out what they have actually been contracted to do, I called, and explained everything, another 1 hr later and it turns out, all they are here to do is test the emergency lighting that has failed for the last 4 years, they have replaced a few emergency lights, and that is all, that is all they was contracted to do, not remove each light and test the emergency battery in situ, as for the lights in this building being on 24/7, he had no idea as he stated "it was not on the remit of the contract", fair enough, so, L&Q Group once again seem to have failed to listen or understand, the nice chap at "dB Audio" did state however, that if there is a timer for the lighting, it could be that which has failed, I agree, it could be that.

    This company is due out again next week towards the end of the week, and he said they will send someone out to retest the system again, and this time they will knock on my door when they are here, so I can carry out any tests while they are doing theres, he did mention to me his employees would have no idea about using spectrum analysis, so I wont be going over there heads talking about it, I just want to find out why the lights are on 24/7 and why this change in the noise has happened..

    Well done to "dB Audio" for listening to me and taking some kind of understanding as well as sending someone else out..

    Also to add to this, the Occupational Therapist came along to give my Partner a review and is appalled at the behavoir of the housing and just about everyone else, Tina can no longer Operate a Radio at this QTH, so it is not just me..

    I will not call L&Q Group until "dB Audio" have been out again, to be honest I don't want to have to do all this, but everything is taking so long, all I am doing is getting pissed off with this hobby..

    Thank's for reading, time to take a chill pill..

    Am I hoperful this matter will be resolved?, NO, not one bit, I am one home out of many that suffer RFI.

    I do hope I do not have to sell up all our stuff and come out the hobby, but it is looking that way..

    Till then Amateur Radio is looking pretty sad from here..

    Regards

    Kev de 2E0WCK

    P.s. to the Management of the RSGB, what plans do you have in place if any to actually get a grip on this, what Lobbying will be done if any and who will you lobby?,. these are serious questions, due to the brexit what laws are you going to try and uphold that we already have?, even though none of them actually work, will the RSGB as a group be active in participating with Government in trying to get this massive RFI and EMC problem all reset?, so we can have actual laws that work and actual people willing to listen instead of being shunned, because right now I feel I have been Conned by the RSGB into believing that we have a spectrum that is lawfully protected like it use to be 40 years ago..
    Basically my trainers lied to me, gave me false sense of what actually is to what is actually percieved to be, and we have both invested a small fortune in good faith to find it's been a waste of time, only time will tell, and remember this, "YOU ONLY GET OUT, WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT"..

    Coming to a home near you...

    Attached Files:

  8. Kev

    Kev Member

    Greetings again,

    Just a quickie,

    Seeing we have over 2000 pages views, it is a little concerning that I have had very little replies to anything I have put up.

    This in itself is a very telling situation, I am not expecting lot of replies and so on, but people reading this must have something to say on the matter, the only main support I have had is from Ken Underwood, who fully understands my troubles, and is very supportive, where is the love, where is your humanity in all this, the support and encouragement to carry on by my said fellow amateurs, why are you all so silent on this..? do tell.. good or bad. why is everyone so silent on this?

    Are people willing to get active on this, or are they quit happy talking the talk but not walking the walk? or is it a case of hard luck fella, we don't give a toss because it does not effect us, ha ha ha..

    Very telling indeed..

    An email has gone off to the President of the RSGB.. I do hope he gets time to read it, digest it and send me a reply..

    Do not get angry, GET ACTIVE...

    I phoned the Housing again today, to ask what have they actually asked the electrical engineering company to actually do, unfortunately for them they lied to me, telling me it is being dealt with, NO it is not, all they have done is asked the dB Audio is to make sure the emergency lighting comes on when it is needed, and that is it, so, the housing have once again failed to listen to me.. I have told them where the fault lies, and still they have no understanding to the English Language.. this is what I am up against..

    Regards

    Kev 2E0WCK..
  9. Kev

    Kev Member

  10. G3YMC

    G3YMC Member

    Kev
    I would have liked to have said you are getting somewhere with your problem but it seems you are not....
    You mention 2,000 page views. Remember though that this is a public forum and available via a Google search. I imagine many of those 'page views' are not from real people and maybe very few from radio amateurs. 2,000 views means very little in today's internet.
    Keep us posted when you hopefully have a solution.

    73 Dave G3YMC
  11. Kev

    Kev Member

    Thanks for the reply Dave G3YMC,

    All understood now on the views thingy, but still, it's poor I have had very little comments other than my own and from Ken.

    This forum obviously does not reach its target audience very well, but that is another story for another day, and I am also dealing with that problem as well, as most do not even think their is a problem with it.

    As for a solution, I have quite a few in mind, but I am tied to a tenancy agreement that does not allow me to take matters into my own hands, so I will be respecting that one.. for now...

    As for my housing association, I now have to wait again so that "dB Audio" who have been contracted in can to carry out their works and then do their report back to the housing who have not listened to me, although they may have and have contracted in this company to confirm or deny my problems, I would Summise that L&Q Group have got this company in purely under legal reasons to make sure said emergency lighting is doing what it says it is, stuff anything else, all they are doing is covering their legal stance on the "Emeergency" part, nothing more, nothing less, but we shall see.

    We will be informing Ofcom again once we have a report to show them, if they decide to do anything about it, will be another question, although this time it will be much harder for them to back out, but as I said before, we shall see..

    But alas the report will be out of date, due to the change in the timmings of the noise, lets hope it is enough to get Ofcom off their sorry arses and into some meaningful action, although if L&Q Group listen to me, then they will sanction the correct works to replace these so called dead batterries, I will probably then have the grief off the switch mode power supplies that charge said batterries, so, to be fair, I am still not convinced this will get resolved but I will go the full hog seeing I have been made to go this far, through no fault of my own other than bad law..

    Regards

    Kev..
    Ken G3SDW likes this.
  12. Kev

    Kev Member

    GOOD NEWS!
    Greetings fellow amateurs,

    Today dB Audio came for another visit, this time sending someone out that understood what I have been telling them, works so far done.

    Most old D type lights are going to be removed, and replaced with this and its Switch mode supply,.

    http://www.kosnic.com/products/2762/#

    http://www.kosnic.com/products/2535/

    Would be worth someone with the correct test gear to get these and test...

    The main reason for the lighting system being on 24/7, someone left the lighting system on manual mode.

    Now this has been turned off, so the lights come on as they should with the sensor and timer.

    Not all lights on the building have changed, however, the main protagonists have been and it is a vast improvement, the others that are still there, will also be replaced so I am told, dB Audio have replaced so far the worst of the lighting in all 5 buildings, more need to be replaced.

    Now all building have working emergency lighting, which they did not have in the last 3 years..

    We also have a much lower noise floor, although the jury is still out until they all the older lighting has been replaced then mosre tests will be carried out by myself, but so far, it is looking good, my onlyt problem is when these switch mode suppliues kick in to charge said lighting, they was appalingly bad for giving off RF, but now we know what they are, tests can be done, so its a win win for everyone in the future.

    We are not out of the woods yet, but we vertainly are moving in the correct direction.

    I have to thank dB Audio for taking the time to listen to me, and using that knowledge to send out someone who was clued up, Peter, the engineer who you sent, went away with much more knowledge about all this that he had before and went away with information on how to pass his foundation test hi hi.. our shack blew him away, and he took the time to come in and I had the chance to show him previous video recordings of the noise viusually on the spectrum analyser software on the big screen, and how bad it effected us both, he was gobsmacked..

    It appears dB Audio are contracted to come along once a month now to maintaine the emergency lighting system as well as doing 6 monthly drain down tests.

    I await the housings letters of notification of what they have done.

    I will add to this, I have made several videos, from 160m to 6m, of the daytime noise floor,



    You can goto my youtube page to view all of them if you like, they are all short, about 50 seconds each, except the 10m 28 mhz recording, this lasted a little longer as the engineer was fitting the last light he had with him, and you can hear the noise from the switch mode supply, although he only did a switch test, so it's quite short.

    After the engineeer went, and I got lots of chores done, I managed to have a listen around the bands, and worked 6m into spain, 20m into Polan and slovenia, and a bit later on around 8:20pm I managed to work a 80m net making several contacts around the UK for the first time since we had this radio and the first time in 3 years..

    Outcomes:

    So far it appears that replacing all these older lights is doing the job, although I am still somewhat concerned over these new power supplies, it is hard to judge until all the older CFL's have been replaced and winter time comes, winter time has been the pits in the last 3 years with the amount of raised noise you would get due to the lower temps, but so far as I said so good.. we shall have to wait and see, but for the meantime, all bands are now workable with the exclusion of 40m, which is still a bit hard work as well as 160m, but a vast improvement for sure.

    We am very greatful to Ken Underwood, who has helped in ways you cannot understand, and for Dr David Lauder coming here and doing his tests, I could not wait any longer, so I carried on giving the housing more information, knowing it was the Emergency batteries in the lighting system made the difference, it gave us some kind of evidence the housing could not refute, and as they are supposed to maintain the system properly we have been lucky the building never caught on fire and peoples lives was not put into any danger, all this stems down to OFCOM, who refused to come here, if they had, they would of uncovered a very serious life threatening issue, not in just this buidling but on all 5 of them which all had not been maintained, our hobby uncovered this..

    Obviously the Housing are the main defaulters on all this, but OFCOM, I hope they get to read this, you need to pull your socks up people, telling me the light will have a CE stamp on it, is lame and disgusting, seeing what we have uncovered, you useless pricks....you are putting lives are risk from scumbag landlords that do not adhear to their contracts with their tennants, you are as bad as the landlord.

    Til then I will keep you all informed, we aint out the woods yet.. but we can now see through the trees a little more..

    This is what you can get done if you get active,..

    Know i have to write several letters to my neighbors who think i am as kranky as they come and will not even come out when im around.. i need to remind them of what I uncovered and a good job I did too..

    I am looking forward to doing my paperback book write up on all this.. it will be long, but well worth the read..

    Til then 73 all.. and have a good weekend on the IOTA contest..
  13. Kev

    Kev Member

  14. Kev

    Kev Member

    Greetings,

    UPDATE:

    Today the Housing came along for the pre-arranged visit here with the head of the company that are doing the work on the buildings lighting system, they was here for over an hour and I had to start from scratch again in explaining it all, then showed them the kit and a few tests was done in front of them with lots of explanation's as I was going, they was both very receptive indeed.

    I will also get one of the old lights and a battery from the old system as I requested, I can send these to DR David Lauder for testing in the lab, which they agreed to.

    The chap from the housing thought at one point the noise might be generated from the main supply that supplies this road, I told him I had already been to that location and noise tested, I see where he was going with all this, but also said if he wants we can go and test it all again, and in all fairness we should replace the rest of the old lights first and dead batteries, then do some more testing and see what happens, it was decided that they will replace what's left in this building first and then we shall see.

    I forgot to ask him the time line on all this, but after the field test and hearing the noise on the old lights his face said it all, lol.. he then really understood how bad it is, and I would imagine it will be done quite quickly so they can put this all to bed.

    The chap from dB Audio was suitably imprest with all the kit and the hobby, he also supplied the Certficiates of complaiance on the new LED lights they have installed, I did mention that this means nothing as this particular light and battery system might have the componants missing from the factory, and explained the self certification system to them, but thanked him for bringing it along for us to keep, they will be returning..

    So, all in all, we are getting somewhere.

    Just remember, don't give in and take it all the way..

    Regards

    73.

    Kev de 2E0WCK..
    Ken G3SDW likes this.
  15. Ken G3SDW

    Ken G3SDW Moderator

    Thanks for the update Kev

    73

    Ken
    Kev likes this.
  16. Kev

    Kev Member

    Update:

    Today our freindly engineer from dB Audio came along, in fact he was the General Manager of the company with 11 years experience with this company.

    All the main Building lights in this building with the DD cfl tubes as well as the emergency battery backup & ballast system has all been replaced with the new LED system and backup system, we only have 1 florescent tube left and that is a straight one not the DD type, only about 8-10 inches long, I have not messured it and it does have a battery backup behind it, this was not replaced yet.

    The remit for this building by the housing to the Contracter dB Audio, is to stop the noise coming from this building only not any adjacent buildings, so that remaining florescent tube may well be changed over also.

    So far the test are superb, daytime only, but 160 meters is so nice and quite, they are all nice and quite but 160m just for listening as I have no transmit antenna up for it is just amazingly quite, they are all amazing now, back to what it was for the first 2 years living here, zero noise floor on all bands on all antennas, don't forget this is daytime, more testing will be done tonight.

    I recently purhcased a FunCube Pro + dongle to play with the satelites as HF has been such a nightmare, today is the first day and I am still testing, I am just using my 2/70 antenna for receive, but I have been collecting WX images, and today since these lights have been changed and bearing in mind I am using the wrong polorization for this WX stuff, but todays images are so clean, very little noise on the imagery, not perfect by any means due to the wrong polorization, plus trees and the buildings around me as the 2/70 is not on the roof as I am not allowed to put it up there, so it's only 15ft off the ground on a pole in the garden, but those old ballasts and lights even off during the day, gasve off enough RF that it was also effecting the WX frequencies around 137 Mhz.

    Wished I had oif got one of these FunCubes ages ago, once again well done and a Big Thanks to Dr David Lauder for educating me.

    I won't mnention tonights testing until after I have done it all, hi hi..

    So far, it is all looking pretty & more to the point sounding pretty good.....

    I will leave you all with a few images from Spectrum Labs software, using once again the Yaesu FTDX5000MP, no Pre-Amps as always, no DNR, just a 6k filter set to 4k width.
    160m.jpg 80m.jpg 40m.jpg 20m_30082016.jpg 17m.jpg 15m.jpg 10m.jpg 6m.jpg
    It's sublime to look at....

    Regards for now all,

    Kev de 2E0WCK.. p.s. keep the faith, get active, we will get there in the end..
  17. Kev

    Kev Member

    More Update:

    Excuse my typos on all of this, I tend to want to get all this off my chest and start pounding the keyboard..

    I forgot to mention, I have one of the old DD lights, as well as it's Emegerncy Battery & Ballast Unit, as well as the Emegency Battery, note the tes on these things, 05 12...

    IMG_5069.JPG IMG_5067.JPG IMG_5065.JPG IMG_5066.JPG IMG_5070.JPG

    Regards

    Kev de 2E0WCK..
  18. Ken G3SDW

    Ken G3SDW Moderator

    Just goes to show that even if it is marked with a CE, then it does not mean it is complaint.

    But Kev one thing comes to mind in all of this and that is "Everything comes to those who wait" and you have by golly you have.

    Well done

    73

    Ken
    G3SDW
    Kev likes this.
  19. Kev

    Kev Member

    Hi Ken,

    Thank you for your comments, you have certainly steered me in the right direction, I can't thank you enough for the advice you have given me as well as the moral support, even when I was at my wits end with it all, it has certainly been a journey for sure..

    So far this evening, bearing in mind the two new lights that was fitted today will probably need the batteries in them needing a good charge up, so I expect some noise from all that for the next 24/48 hours.

    The Noise floor on 6m, 10m, 12m, 15m, 17m, 20m, no longer has the nasty Crescendo noise it use you have, although it does raise up a little when the lights come on.

    This can be clearly seen on these two pictures below by the colour changes on the raised floor of the second night time picture.

    6m, 10m, 12m, Image traces are almost the same as the 20m images.

    20m Day Time Pic
    20m_30082016.jpg

    20m Night Time Pic
    20mnight.jpg


    40m & 80m noise floor is raised when the lights come on, but no audible Crescendo, just a rather dirtier noise floor, so I am using the DNR on the no3 to no6 setting, it is a lot cleaner to say the least, much much better and a vast improvement on what it was like before.

    40m Day Time Pic
    40m.jpg

    40m Night Time Pic
    40mnight.jpg
    80m images are pretty much the same as the 40m images.

    160m is beautiful, although you can still see the crescendo from the lighting system in the building nearest us in the image below, all those little gaps like it is split into tiny little segments are the old lighting system, the nearest of the old lights is about 120ft away and there is only one that close now, the next one along the line is about 140ft away from the antenna's, so it still shows how far they can reach...

    160m Night Time Pic
    160mwithlightson.jpg

    I would imagine but not tested, that the raised noise floor would be coming from the other building nearest us with the same part old system/new lighting, I have been told today that over time as the older lights "Fail" that as we now have a contractor coming along these older lights we slowly be replaced with the newer LED system.

    Only time will tell now, and I still need to do some more night time testing, and then I will carry on testing until the end of winter.

    I will say this, hi hi, it can take absolute hours doing these traces, finding a clear frequency when a band is busy to do a trace can take hours, all we want is a clean one with knowone tuning up or no bleed over from adjacent or nearby qso's that are going on, but it has been worth while doing it all.

    I have learned a lot of things with all this for sure and would be happy to pass on any information I have found in trying to get this all resolved for anyone else going through the same thing.

    All in all, we seem to be winning on this one Ken,..

    We can hear people without any nasty crap now at night, we are both very very relieved with it all, although we will wait for winter time, if we drank alchohol we would be opening a bottle of bubbly to celebrate our little success.

    Hat's off to you and your team Ken, you really do offer a superb service, but it really does take too long as we are both aware of all this, but it is still worth sticking with it I think and we hope that these things in time will be less of a problem for people, but that is work that I know is ongoing and will always be ongoing..

    Regards

    Kev de 2E0WCK....

    No Retreat, No Surrender, Woof! Woof!, says my dog.. hi hi..
    Ken G3SDW likes this.
  20. Ken G3SDW

    Ken G3SDW Moderator

    Well done for sticking in there Kev`, must have been hard but you did it.
    Always here t help at anytime.
    73
    Ken
    G3SDW
    Kev likes this.

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